February March 1980

Colloquium III

Freddie Waits, Horacee Arnold, Billy Hart

CI: How did the three of you get together for this project?

FW: I’ve heard various versions of how we got together. I’ll tell you my version. For years, I loved Billy Hart and Horacee Arnold. I have worked with Billy and Horacee in various situations. Horacee had an arrangement with Rick Kravetz here at the Drummers’ Collective where he could give clinics. Horacee wanted me to be his guest. I’m not sure if I mentioned or he mentioned that we really wanted to do something else together. We wanted to stretch out into a whole seminar type thing, as opposed to doing a clinic together or Horacee doing a clinic by himself. When Horacee brought me in, I suggested that with three drummers we could really bring it out. Horacee said, ‘Yeah, I thought about that but didn’t know how to mention it.’ Then we thought about who we wanted. And both of us came up with the same thing. That! (pointing to Billy Hart). After that Horacee took it from there and approached Billy. Billy of course agreed. Horacee began to lay out a format of what we had in mind. We had to sit and talk together and discuss what we wanted to do. We spent a lot of time just talking about it, before we even touched the instruments. We talked about the whole direction and concept of Colloquium III, and that’s where all three of us had an equal amount of input. It’s something of which all three of us are proud.

CI: Does that sound good to you Horacee?

HA: It was through knowing each other first of all. Billy and I have known each other for about 15 years. We’ve all been very good friends. So, about two years ago they did a clinic together. Philly (Joe Jones), Lou Hayes and myself did a clinic two months prior to that. It seemed that the feeling for drummers doing things together had come around. I had a clinic set up at the Drummers’ Collective and thought about doing another one. I thought it might be interesting to join with some people who were my contemporaries, and who thought along the same general lines. And I believe I called you first Billy.

BH: I’m not sure.

HA: So we decided to do it. Everybody was up for it. The next thing was getting together and that was difficult. Everybody was going in different directions. I was leaving for Europe, when Billy was coming back. Our schedules were up in the air. Finally, we were all in the city and made the arrangements with Drummers’ Collective. We came to grips with Colloquium III and from that moment I started writing music for the drum thing we did. Billy started getting his stuff together, and the same thing with Freddie. The first rehearsal did it.

BH: For years, I had the idea of having two other drummers to make a recording with. Evidently, Horacee had been thinking about it too. It took that situation to bring it about. And, I had already recorded with Dahoud (Waits) and with Horacee too. So it was a natural outgrowth.

FW: We’ve known each other and respected each other’s work. We all met when we were coming up. I had met Jabali (Hart) when I was working with Motown.

CI: Do you recall your first meeting?

FW: I went to D.C. and heard so much of Jabali. When I met him he was just as he is now—smiling. He took me up to his gig. He was working in a club called Abarks with Shirley Horn. I never forgot that. I thought that was so hip. I thought D.C. was hipper than New York.

BH: Well, we heard about you before you even came. The same thing for Horacee.

HA: Yes, you saw me before we actually met.

BH: I saw you at Birdland. I was brought there to hear you.

HA: I was playing there with Bud Powell on one occasion. We met around that time. I remember when Freddie came to New York with Paul Winter. I was with Mclntosh at the time. Mac was doing some writing for Winter. When I heard Freddie’s performance on the album I said, ‘What’s this cat doing?’ Something different that I had never heard before. And it’s funny that Freddie and I hadn’t heard that much of each other live at the time. I just think our paths kept crossing.

FW: I used to hear Horacee everywhere. All the places. I would stop in and hear Horacee play. He would stop me in my tracks everytime. We had been aware of each other for a long time.

HA: In fact, we had some very nice conversations at the Jazz Mobile. One of the things that impressed me about Freddie, which had nothing to do with his playing, was his family. It’s rare to see a talented cat with such a family oriented mind. I am that way as well, and it was very warm for me to meet somebody else like that. I think there’s a certain thing that comes out of that, which you sense in a person. Right away you feel very much at home. But then I heard Freddie play live once with awesome technique, and fire.

BH: And creative. I’m still playing one of those licks I heard you do at the Motown revue.

FW: I like to watch Billy Hart play because he’s so illusive. He’s all over the instrument, and can’t help but be creative. I don’t think he can play any other way. Watch him the next time he plays with anybody. There’s something going on that you’re going to dig, whether I like the other musicians or not. There are a lot of cats that I don’t like playing with. There are people out here who make it very hard for you. And I don’t think they know themselves.

CI: You mean they make it difficult for you to be creative?

FW: Yes, they make it very hard.

BH: Nobody does something wrong on purpose.

FW: They just don’t realize what they’re doing to the drummer. There is really a preconceived idea out here with some of the older cats. They just don’t see the intelligence in the person behind the instrument. You can tell the guys who are different from the ones who want to keep you in a box. For what reason?

BH: Andrew Cyrille pointed out an important thing to me. In all the major innovative bands, the drummer has been totally free. Whether it was Baby Dodds with Joe King Oliver, or Jo Jones with Count Basie, or Philly Joe with Miles, or Max with Bird, or Elvin with John. Usually, the major innovators had the foresight to let the drummer be free. Herbie Hancock told me that he always thought the piano player was the leader of the band, but Miles showed him that the drummer is not only the conductor of the band, but the leader. Consequently, Miles has not just had a legacy, but a dynasty of great drummers. How many men have had four totally innovative bands. Totally different bands that were all innovative. Because Miles had Philly Joe Jones, Jimmy Cobb, Tony Williams, and Jack DeJohnette.

HA: And we don’t know what comment to make on Al Foster yet, because Miles isn’t working now.

FW: Al Foster, and Michael Carvin by the way are honorary members of Colloquium III. Because those cats are doing it too.

CI: Who are some of the drummers you enjoy listening to?

FW: Each one of us have people that we listen to that really impress us, people that we respect. People that probably the average person never hears about. One of the people that really impressed me when I went to Mississippi, was George Goldsmith. He’s just getting back on the scene again. In fact, I heard him in Detroit when I first went from Mississippi to Detroit. Today I haven’t heard anybody, other than people like Elvin, who have impressed me more.

HA: When I came to New York around 1960-61, Edgar Bateman was one player that really impressed me.

CI: He’s in Philadelphia now, isn’t he?

HA: Yes, but he had brought some stuff to New York that very few people had ever conceived. His independence things were so different.

BH: Donald Bailey. And Wilbur Campbell just got his write-up, so he’s not obscure anymore.

HA: You see, that’s the thing. A lot of these people are never heard of because the drummers that know of them, who could talk about them, obviously don’t do it.

BH: Joe Charles, Billy Higgins, and they say Elvin got a chance to hear Joe Charles and Wilbur Campbell.

FW: I heard Curtis Prince at Tennessee State when I was in school in Mississippi. We could name a lot of people that everyone knows, but I just think these stay on your mind.

HA: Do you know a guy named Mousey from Baltimore? His technique was incredible. He played his butt off.

BH: Did you hear Jonathan Jones’ record? You should hear all the cats he talks about that you’ve never listened to.

FW: One guy I had listened to was O’Neill Spencer.

HA: And Max used to talk about Lee Young.

FW: There are so many cats that I’ve heard that really left an impression. That people never knew about. Foots! Do you know Foots with Benny Johnson?

BH: It seems to be part of a cultural experience in this country that we have an excess of talent and yet only a small percentage are commercially accepted. Where can you go without hearing a great drummer? I don’t care who goes to New Orleans, they’re in for a shock, as long as James Black is there.

FW: There’s a cat down there now named Smokey.

BH: He’s more of a rock drummer.

FW: No. Smokey can play too. All those cats, James Black, Smokey, Blackwell.

HA: Anytime you’re involved with a certain cultural thing, you come in contact with certain elements. We have heard these people, yet their greatness is unfortunately hidden from the public. How many people know about Frank Butler? Anytime you are connected with this art you have to hear about these names as means of association. You go to a city and they say, ‘Man have you heard so and so?’ So you go there the next night and hear them. This has nothing to do with the guys who listen to the Steve Gadds and David Garibaldis on record. I mean, those guys have been doing what they’ve been doing for years. And they’ve come up with their own directions, their own thrust. Of course, they’ve listened to everybody else but the main thing is that they’ve got something to say on the instrument. They are very profound.

CI: Jazz is a term which covers a lot of ground. Do you feel you can almost determine the region a particular drummer is from by his playing style?

BH: Sometimes, I think I can.

FW: There’s a definite New Orleans way.

BH: There’s a definite Boston way too. Roy, Tony and Clifford Jarvis.

HA: A west coast thing.

BH: And there’s a Detroit thing, without a doubt. Why didn’t you ever tell me about Burt Myrick?

FW: Whew! That’s another name. I’ve been trying to reach him but we’ve been missing each other for the past month. Jimmie Lovelace is another.

BH: I keep hearing these young little funk drummers.

FW: There are a lot of cats coming through. I remember Willy Fletcher. He came to me at a class down in Delaware. He said, ‘I want to come up to New York and play.’ I said, ‘C’mon.’ The little rascal came up here and played.

BH: That keeps the experience alive. Not people who are so commercialized that they can’t move for fear of destroying their own economical progress. The other people keep it alive.

CI: You mean the young blood?

BH: Young and old blood. How can you discuss Ben Riley, Charli Persip, Louis Hayes, Billy Higgins. What are we supposed to say? They don’t exist now that we’ve got a David Garibaldi, Steve Gadd, and Harvey Mason. Does that make those cats any less talented?

HA: It seems as though one feeds the other. The older experienced players seem to feed the young. The young ones in turn, feed them again. So, it’s a continuous cycle. It never stops. And that’s what keeps it very healthy. Because no one has time to rest on their laurels. It has a lot to do with development. New ways of approaching the same thing. Developing and maturing over the years. Many times something you did ten years ago, you’re still doing now. And you’re finding it more refreshing than it was ten years ago. It keeps getting more mellow. That’s like when I listen to Elvin. I hear things that he played years ago. Those same things sound just as potent as they ever did.

FW: Fortunately, I’ve been involved the last couple of years with a lot of clinics, concerts, and lecture demonstrations. I’ve found that young people are starving across the country for people like us who are involved in music and capable of doing it. People are ready to accept what we are talking about. They know that we are able to give them a better understanding of what they’re trying to learn about jazz drumming. I thought getting involved in academia would cut down my activity as a player, but it actually enhanced it. Once you get out there in that solid, scholastic atmosphere, you find that these young people want to hear some music. The only reason they’re not listening to music is because something else is being shoved down their throats. They’re not getting the opportunity to hear really good music. They’re interested in how you approach your instrument, and the ability you have on your instrument. They’ve never seen that because they’ve been watching people play rock. When they see some finesse they understand that there’s a lot of sophistication involved, a lot of technique, study, and time involved. During a clinic you get the opportunity to put those ideas across to them. Because they are interested. When they get in touch with something like that they don’t want to let it go. I think Colloquium is really a spearheading thing. There will be many more things like it. We have found that people are ready for our kind of presentation.

HA: The three of us are coming from an experience. This is something that we’ve been doing all our lives. We’ve been playing in the hardcore of music. Freddie played with McCoy, Billy played with Herbie and Chick. We’ve really experienced and contributed to the growth of the music. We’re not saying that we’re the only ones, but we’ve certainly been doing it. We all have three slightly different perspectives of the instrument. That really makes it good because when we go into a university situation we can talk from experience. Which is what the student really understands.

BH: In varying degrees.

FW: I’m in academia not because of a degree situation but because of my playing experience. That’s what they want. They want professionals who are out there performing. All of us are involved in quite a bit of freelance activity. It doesn’t affect Colloquium III at all. But it’s not something to which we have solely committed ourselves. I’m involved in M’Boom Re which is Max Roach’s group.

CI: Freddie, what makes talking about a particular subject on a gig different from discussing it at a clinic?

FW: I cannot get up off my instrument after 45 minutes to an hour of hard playing and concentrated work and start lecturing. I can’t do it. My head is not ready for it. I have to psych myself up to a different level for playing, than I do for teaching or talking. When I’m playing, I think I’m at my zenith in terms of creativity. To walk off the stage at that moment and start trying to explain what I did, is impossible, though I can go into a clinical situation and demonstrate, and discuss the things I’ve demonstrated. In a teaching situation one can’t be expected to teach on the level of the bandstand. You can let ideas out, give formats, give all kinds of exercises, and construct a lot of different things. But, in terms of actual playing, a student has to come and observe you in a playing situation, and wait until the next lesson to discuss it.

CI: Billy, would you like to comment on this?

BH: One of the major differences in a lecture demonstration is that you’re talking about the instrument. Whereas, when you leave the bandstand, you’re coming from a complete musical experience, the sum of all the instruments you’ve played and performed with at the time. And to explain that kind of concentration as opposed to just concentrating on your instrument is difficult. They are two completely different things.

HA: It’s a totally different concept all together. When playing, you’re dealing with t h e aesthetics of music. You’re dealing with the aesthetics of what you do without concentrating specifically on certain things. When you get ready to do a clinic, you gear yourself to highlight certain aspects. And as they come to you through questions, you’re ready to deal with them. Because you have given some forethought to it. I’m putting out something that people can digest. When you’re playing, it doesn’t matter whether the public digests it or not. You’re playing because you’re dealing with the music at that moment. There are certain things that I want to do, and when performing I have another opportunity to do them. Not that you’re gearing yourself to do anything specifically, but you reach for another level.

FW: The levels change each night. After you play, there’s still something you want to do the next night. I couldn’t just come off the bandstand like that. It may sound strange, but when you get into the mood of the evening with the group and it’s really going good, I don’t want to break that mood. I want to stay in contact with them. So you can relate to them and what you’re going to do on the next set. Sometimes it happens that way, and sometimes everybody is very elusive. I don’t make light of any question that a young person asks me about the instrument. I’ve found that at a lot of clinics people who are considered great clinicians have really put young people down for some of the questions that they’ve asked.

CI: You all teach privately. Does your approach with your private students depend on the individual?

FW: It depends on where the individual is at.

CI: Where they want to go?

FW: Where they’re trying to go. A lot of people can’t deal with some of the students that I can. Some students I have to dismiss. A lot of them can’t deal with me. It’s very important for them to understand where I’m coming from and what I have to offer in a situation. I try to use that approach with them and at the same time, I see things in their playing that perhaps Horacee can better help them with. Or, I might suggest the student see Billy Hart for certain things. I don’t think I know it all. If a person respects me and comes to me, I’m supposed to let him know of other possibilities and teaching situations which can help him. I don’t have all the answers myself. Someone may be talking about something that I’m not as knowledgeable about, like the playing of a Billy Hart idea. Then, I think he should go study with Billy. Or maybe I think Billy can convey something to him better than I can. I don’t think any one of us is a text book teacher. I’m not a person who can sight a problem that way. Basically, I find that a lot of books talk about various problems but the answers given are not necessarily worked out from a player’s point of view. They may be worked out from an analytical point of view. But the depth of the problem is not explored. Whereas, I would attack that problem differently because I am a player.

HA: I think you’ve said some very important things in talking about the teacher-student relationship. What is the teacher? I think that’s the main question. For me, Charles Mingus and Barry Harris were good teachers. Fortunately, I worked with both of them. And I learned more from the experience of working with them than if I had a private teacher at the time. Neither Barry or Mingus were drummers, but they would tell me things about time that I was not aware of. They’d say, ‘There’s too much top and not enough bottom.’ Or, ‘Lay back, don’t feel that you have to play every thing. Take your time.’ All those points. The next time I worked with them, I was a better player. So, I learned more from people like Alvin Ailey, Barry Harris, Charlie Mingus, a piano player named Hassan. The only other person I learned from was Max, watching him practice from time to time. Being associated with someone who is a player and is practicing his craft helps you learn. You can’t help but learn. I think that 70 percent of what Billy, Freddie and myself learned was on the bandstand. We were just on the bandstand each night, learning from the experience of working with people who have musical maturity.

BH: We’re talking about a culture that’s being handed down, as opposed to some kind of TV dinner style lesson put out. We’re talking about something centuries old.

HA: You know, I don’t want to leave anyone with the wrong impression either. None of us want to say that there is only one way to learn. I think it is one of the most important ways to learn. But it doesn’t negate the actual experience of learning how to read, learning how to understandrhythms and how to interpret the instrument. And also, writing helps as well.

BH: It’s something that you have to do. You have to have some kind of love for it.

CI: Do the three of you see any new vistas for drummers?

HA: I think there are areas that have not been discovered. Who would have thought 50 years ago that there would be a man playing the drums the way Elvin plays? Or a concept of that kind of playing.

BH: What makes you think Elvin was the first one to do it? Elvin was the first one to have some kind of commercial acceptance. And then again, the instrument is only subordinant to the music. And the music is so atmospheric. It’s a cycle that goes into a spiral and continues to return as it evolves.

HA: And each time it comes around it presents a different facet.

FW: There’s nothing new happening. Everything’s been done, there are just other ways of doing it. Those ways aren’t necessarily new. Somebody doing Elvin’s thing verbatim might have a different look about him when he did it. And that would be it.

BH: I’ve been hearing talk about Elvin for years. It wasn’t until his association with John that he really excelled as a player.

FW: It gave him the freedom. I heard something he did with Benny Green and Elvin was playing a straight up and down thing. Then you listen to him a little later with John and you hear what he was really trying to play.

HA: There’s a whole thing about discovery at certain periods of time. There are a lot of things that exist on the instrument that haven’t been discovered. As the time comes where the music develops, those things seem to come out more. The whole idea of playing different time signatures. Max was doing that, but who got the credit for it? Brubeck, right? Now, Billy Cobham comes out with different time signatures but he’s playing them in the same way that Max was playing them. If you happen to be the person who’s in the driver’s seat, then you get all the glory.

CI: Tell me about the equipment you use.

FW: I use Gretsch equipment and Zildjian cymbals. Two bass drums, a 22″ and a 24″, but I use them one at a time. I use a three mount on the bass drum and three toms, 8″ x 10″, 9″ x 12″ and 10″ x 14″. I use three floor toms: 14″ x 14″, 16″ x 16″ and 18″ x 16″. I have a 14″ x 6 1/2″ snare and five cymbals, two rides, three crash cymbals and the hi-hat.

CI: Do you feel you attain more power with the 24″ bass in your solo work?

FW: Yes, more bottom for my solo work. When I’m by myself I like that bottom. I really like it with bands too, but it’s all bottom. I like the A Zildjians. And I’m using one K, which is a 20″ ride.

CI: What’s your set-up Billy?

BH: I keep it as miniscule as possible. I am still using an 18″ bass drum. I have a 14″ x 14″ and 8″ x 10″ toms and I just started using three cymbals on the right, usually a 22″ ride, a 20″ ride with rivets and a swish without rivets. I have an 18″ on the left and a 15″ or 13″ hi-hat, depending on what kind of gig I’m playing. I switch a little bit from gig to gig.

FW: That has a lot to do with it. I also play an 18″ bass drum, one tom and a 14″ floor tom with two ride cymbals. That’s my favorite kit. It’s my jobbing kit.

HA: I generally use two, 20″ bass drums, an 18″ x 12″, two 9″ x 13″, 10″ x 14″, 14″ x 14″, 16″ x 16″ and an 18″ x 14″ tom-tom. The set is Premier and I use a set of A Zildjian cymbals comprised of: 14″ hi-hats, a 22″ swish, two 18″ cymbals and a 22″ ride. At this point my set-up really provides me with what I need. And I’m discovering more stuff in them as I play. And you also find that in certain situations, you have to modify. For instance, you may do certain things to the drums which you feel are necessary.

CI: What are your thoughts on tuning the instrument.

BH: You have caught me at a time of indecision. I used to tune it one way. I used to tune the top head for tension and the bottom head for tone. Never before was I particular enough to tune the bottom and top heads for both tension and tone. You have to spend that much time with your instrument unless you want to sound like everybody else. A lot of guys are taking one head off, so they can’t be that interested in sound, except how to deaden it.

CI: Some drummers think they get more projection with the bottom head off.

BH: Projection? How are they going to project with the head off the drum? That’s not projection. Will taking the bell off of a saxophone give it more projection? They might mean less overtone. But I want overtones.

HA: If you really want projection, you can get that by miking your drums. That’s what most of them do when they take their heads off, they stick the mikes inside. What more projection would you want? But if you want projection in terms of tone and sound of the instrument, you need those heads on to get the tone of the instrument. Otherwise, everything goes out and dissipates in the air.

BH: Does Elvin take the bottom head off of his drum? Does Tony or Max?

HA: There must be a reason for it.

CI: What about concert toms?

HA: They’re made for a certain sound. The sound in conjunction with the whole orchestral setting. These drums are made for another sound, a sound in harmony with the sound of the instrument itself as well as with the music it is being used in. I don’t think the relationship is quite that fair because you don’t normally think of concert toms in the music.

BH: I think as Colloquium III we’re more interested in the advancement of tradition. You can think of modern ways, people do it all the time. But again I think in terms of the TV dinner. It’s quicker but when a cat’s talking about a good meal, he talks about those Southern meals. When I met Billy Cobham last time, he was looking for an old snare drum. Everyone is looking for old drums.

CI: Do you feel today’s musician must be a keen businessman as well?

FW: There are more businessmen in music than there are musicians.

BH: It has reached the point where businessmen control the music. The musicians do not control the music business anymore.

FW: I don’t think they ever did.

BH: They don’t even control the music anymore. They tell the musician what to play and in some way they computerize what people will be affected by the most. They tell the musicians to play according to formula. And they have a condescending attitude towards the musician.

FW: Like they are better than you.

HA: It’s really difficult for a musician to practice his craft, and know he has to take care of business. Because the business is so frustrating and absorbing in itself. You do all your homework, you get your act together, you’re with your contemporaries in terms of reputation, and then when it comes to the business world, that’s where all the problems and frustrations hit you. So the musician learns the business. He becomes more involved with the business end of music. But it’s very frustrating because it’s difficult to justify the two coming together.

CI: Does Colloquium III have someone who handles the business?

FW: Not at this point.

HA: Let me put it this way. What we ultimately do have is representation to take care of individual matters. If we need representation we know how to get it. At present, we do not have a person on retainer to represent Colloquium III.

CI: Is it your feeling that a drummer must lead a particular type of lifestyle, be exposed to a specific environment and/or be black to be able to play the artform.

BH: The color is the basis for a certain humility that you need to be creative. But certainly, if a person had the desire, they could do it.

FW: What you’re asking is the same thing reversed. Richard Davis and Art Davis tried to get into the Philharmonic in New York City. Those men were capable musicians. I don’t know whether you’d say they were not playing the music correctly as a European would play it. But they were the top rate musicians in this country, and were not allowed the opportunity to play in the symphony. The reason I’m saying this is because I’m involved in a lot of symphony work now. I’ve been doing a lot of concerts with Billy Taylor. Billy is doing concerts across the country with major symphony orchestras. All of the orchestras are comprised solely of white musicians, all European, maybe one black, usually in the bass section. I haven’t seen more than one.

CI: Do you feel that’s tokenism?

FW: Definitely!

CI: Let’s get back to my original question.

FW: Do you have to be white to play jazz is what you’re asking?

CI: How about, do you have to be black to play jazz?

FW: Well, that’s the same question.

CI: Is it?

FW: A lot of blacks because of their influence and what they hear on the radio, can’t play jazz. But at the same time I think what Billy said is true. If you want to sacrifice yourself and do the things that a person does to understand this music, you can do it. Being born in Mississippi and raised with the black blues singers gave me the proper background for what I’m doing now. Now any other person who’s trying to play jazz without that kind of background, is going to have different experiences to relay on their instrument. They’re going to have a different feeling for what they are doing musically. A different feeling for the time. It combines itself with the African feeling, and the slavery situation and all that through the South. Someone might ask, can a white person play? I think yes, they can be taught to play music, but it’s going to be new music. There will be differences. You cannot be a John Coltrane or Charlie Parker, but you can come from John Coltrane and Charlie Parker. An infinite route out of there. Now when you hit that route in anybody, I’ll accept them musically. That means there’s a lot of musicality involved. Whether they are playing as a black person or whatever, those influences are coming through. That’s what music is about. Music is an evolution.

HA: One of the exceptions about where the three of us are coming from musically has a lot to do with our background. I’m from Louisville, Kentucky. I was handed down a heritage of jazz albums from my oldest brother. There were six boys and each one of us got that same collection. We played in rhythm and blues bands. That lifestyle dictates a lot about the kind of feeling that we project when we play our instrument. You begin to learn from the master craftsmen like Max and the others, in addition to your own personal studies.

BH: It’s a cultural and creative process. The commercial possibilities made it popular to the masses. A lot of people are under the assumption that this is not serious music. When they say serious music they’re referring to the European classics. To me this is serious music. The mentality of the basic person out there is that to play jazz you get up there and play something funny. They don’t realize the thought, rehearsing and practice that goes into being a jazz musician.

CI: Or the sacrifices?

FW: Yes, the sacrifices. That’s it exactly. With that mentality, people have to be shown the musicality which is involved. You should get the same respect from them as they would give to their socalled serious musicians.

CI: Do you feel the jazz musician receives more respect in Europe than in the United States?

BH: They have their own music, that’s why they can be so gracious in the first place! Jazz is the classical music of this country. The people in control didn’t innovate it so they don’t want to accept it as their classical music. When we go over there, those people have nothing to be afraid of. They have their own music, so they can accept yours better, because they have something of their own.

CI: Freddie, you mentioned you had planned to videotape Colloquium Ill’s clinics.

FW: I haven’t, but I videotaped all of my stuff at the university. And recently, I videotaped my performances in Arizona and California. I think that’s very important for this group. Whenever we perform, I’m going to try to have videotape equipment handy. I think it could be a pilot project for Channel 13, it was done that well. That’s looking at it from a business point of view. Sometimes, we have to do that as well.